042 How Much Followup is Too Much for Interviews and Networking

You got the interview. You wrote the thank you note. You followed up with an email. You called the recruiter. What’s next? 

Scott and Andrew talk about the Do’s and Don’ts of following up for interviews and networking.

Don’t miss these Topics:

  • The power of empathy.
  • Golden and Platinum Rule
  • Refining your approach to following up
  • When do you give up
  • Thinking outside the box of HR recruiter
  • Positive and effective ways to followup well 
 

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00:00:00 – 00:05:00

Job-seekers radio Andrew, and I’m Scott this production is meant to provide you meaningful support to find great careers faster. Whether you’re working or not today on job seekers radio. We’re talking about follow up. How much is too much and win. Can we cross that line to where we become an annoying pestering fool, right? Rather than an exceptionally qualified. Awesome candidate exactly follow up as one of my favorite, topics. I’ve said many times you may have heard it in in prior podcasts. I’m sure you will hear it in the future for me. Follow up is the most important step of any process if you aren’t following up. Well, you’re you don’t know if it truly works other than Donal evidence. And I’m not gonna get into a lot of debate over this. I’ve just find that if you follow up in a thoughtful manner that the chances of success, whatever it is. You’re trying to do. To increase if you’re thinking that it’s too much. It probably is. Yeah. Put yourself in their shoes. How often would you wanna be followed up with and how much and what method and what does that look like kind of us a little bit of empathy and put yourself in their position. Sure. And understand the context of what your follow it might be related to. So I’ve been unemployed several times been laid off just from the nature of the work that I’ve done and the result is I end up looking for work afterwards. I’ve done this many times. I’ve also been a hiring manager. I tend to see people behaving toward me when I was looking for an employee similarly to how I was behaving as well. And so as I look at the things that work for me, the things that don’t work for me from these candidates. It’s sort of bringing in full circle. And I. Get a different understanding of how I might have been coming across. If I was following up too often or not often enough what I was saying as I was following up. All of these things came into better, focus, so short of becoming a hiring manager all of a sudden, you will want to put your own activities through that filter to see how it works on the other side. And you’ll never know exactly what the other person might be thinking. And that’s okay. Think of all the times where follow up could make a difference in your career. That’s how we’re approaching this could relate to an interview it could just be you try to build relationships inside your organization, it could be you wanting to do career change, whatever the context is networking interviewing what have you? This podcast episode is really dedicated to help you get better at that activity in terms of how you approach people and the approach really does make. Difference. If your intent is to build strategic relationships that you want to incubate over time, you’re always going to be seeking people that fit that that mold rather than maybe tactical series of things you do just to get a job or an offer or. Yes. Afind out status on your application. Whatever it might be your goal is different. When you want to establish these relationships, it’s the relationship that becomes the goal that what a successful relationship looks like in this context is going to take time to build all of that changes the way you’re defining the road to success. So the approach does shift really quite quite dramatically with that said, you’re also going to want to think about what strategically could benefit both sides of that networking conversation over time as I’m talking for example to department manager today. Tomorrow, I may be talking to a CEO or maybe somebody who works in the mail room. And I’ll I’ll tell you those are some of my favorite people because they interact with everyone in the organization on some level. They know what’s going on. And they’re usually the ones that are perceived as being the lowest on the ladder. Well, guess who’s holding up the ladder? Right. All of these different relationships has you build the relationships over time, you’re going to become on some level, a friend. When does it come to a y need to get in touch with the gate keeper, the people that you build these long term relationships with can probably get you not only to the gate keeper, but beyond. So you’re shaking hands kissing babies friends in the mail room. Exact you’re amazing. Well, so here’s an idea.

00:05:00 – 00:10:07

The reason I brought that up is if if you have an objective in anything certainly wanna leave a lasting impression growing. Right. You want a good lasting impression positive. I guess what? I was suggesting is you need to identify those group of people that you feel are strategic to your future. Because that’s the part you control certainly want to have different kinds of relationships exact professionally. Yes. But in this case, I don’t think we can have. Hundreds of really solid strategic relationship. No, that’s not being strategic. What is the plan? Talked two hundred people while on the other hand making the decision to take a long-term approach means that there won’t be as many short term successes and for some of our listeners, they need the short term successes. There’s nothing wrong with taking an approach to what is going to get me that first interview. How can I do the short term relationship tight activities that are going to get me into the interview faster? These are all decisions that only you can make but that’s going to be a different approach, and it’s good. It’s just not going to have the long term benefits. So understanding the difference and using both at the appropriate times is going to set you up perhaps it would be easier for audience. Maybe if we separated deduce. From the dome. Okay. And we really discuss from that perspective. What we would recommend in terms of follow up. Let’s start with the dues. Let’s start with a positive. Absolutely. I mean, the doodoo, but you know, what I mean? Start with the dues. Well, keep keep your follow meaningful meaningful the conversation should really be obviously mutually beneficial. But when you follow up, don’t you say, hey, I was just calling to fall up. Yeah. Well. I suppose if that’s the best you can do it. No having a meaningful conversation. Again. What’s meaningful to one person may be different from what’s meaningful to another. But the idea you’re bringing something to the table that helps them one of the nice things that I hear in the Pacific northwest fairly often is how can I help you? And I think it’s meant. Well, I think they they truly want to be able to help but often it becomes clear pretty quickly that they’re offering only because they want something from you. And they don’t really do a good job of masking that I’m not saying, you should mascot. I’m saying you should want to help other people because those are the types of people we all wanna meet and get to know those who truly enjoy helping others. They have a different mindset. They don’t have L tear motives or hidden agendas. And it’s been my experience that generally I can figure out when. It’s just there this person has inches. Feels a little slime exactly you can. And I don’t feel it. And I don’t follow up with them. I don’t want to have any more interaction as as my mother likes to say. I don’t want to get to know that person any better than I already do. I love your mom too. You know, it’s it’s one of those things that we all have been there. We all go through this with somebody in our lives, right? Especially on the professional level. We are talking to somebody that we just can’t get past the idea that this person is asking for political reasons, and I just don’t like working with people like that you seem very transparent. Why don’t you just tell them? Hey, I’m getting the feeling that you’re asking for political reason. I digress. No. Actually, I have done that. When when I’ve had someone that’s another podcast. They want to connect with me on Lincoln. And I can’t figure out by looking at their profile y they would want to connect with me. Me. And I it’s really just because they have a motive to get beyond their self interested. Yeah. Yeah. Interest political whatever you wanna call it really the objective when you reach out to somebody have purpose. Exactly. Have it be meaningful add value and be relevant to that person? Yes. Rather than myself. We talk a lot and my current team about adding value. It’s almost a joke. But we truly mean it when you’re having a conversation, you’re you’re meeting with someone. You’re you’re proposing a solution whatever the conversation is about I want to bring something value to the other person. Because that’s how we maintain the connection what we’re talking about following up a whether it’s an interview a search function, whatever that is if I am always approaching this. Then I’m adding value. The chances are better that I’m going to get a response. And when you do that, it’s good to have some sort of. Cadence right set up in advance. If it’s for an interview, I’m going to reach out to them when they say, and maybe a week later, and then a week later, and then maybe a month later, really you need to make a decision at some point.

00:10:07 – 00:15:05

We’ll talk about some ideas there in terms of how long you should continue following up as long as the person’s engaged would be my answer. So, but again that you’re gonna judge that based on the responses you’ve got if you have not received any responses at all I wouldn’t put a lot of effort into that second or third month. But it may be that you want to go to work for that company and only that company there are ways to keep that fire burning even on a lower level, which brings up another ideas. You were speaking I kept thinking about different ways to connect with people because it may be just or incessantly sending Email will probably because that’s all you have is their Email triumph phone, call send a piece of mail attach it up do diff. Things to follow up with this person. Maybe Clinton article or printer article off the internet and mail it to him. Hey thought you’d find this interesting. You know, there’s just different ways you can incubate this relationship over time that demonstrates your interest. And you don’t want to continually ask them. Do you have a job for me? Or can I have this conversation to your point sending them? An article actually, it may seem sort of silly. But it gets you noticed. And if it’s a negative elementary tell you, please stop, okay. Too bad for that one. Right. But you’re you’re going to get noticed. And that’s the point the regularity that comes with the different ways. They’d see you save for instance, if you’re targeting a specific executive or gatekeeper or company, and you have a chance to go to different association meetings or networking meetings. Whatever those look like, and they see you every time they’re going to have a certain amount of trust that they can get to know you a little bit. So as you’ve got this cadence thing going the more often, they see you in a positive light, the more likely you’re going to get a positive response. Another component is ask for advice. One of the dues that you want to do in terms of following up. With people is just to ask them. How would they like to be followed up with what is it? Good. Cadence for them take the cue from your audience in and likely, if you do what they say, they’re more likely to help you one thing that comes to my mind when I think about asking for advice. What advice would I be looking for? If I haven’t had any response from the company at all well, talk to people who are in the industry or on that level. Or maybe it’s a recruiter that you’ve talked with in the past who’s trying to help you find a position, I really believe strongly in making friends with people at temp agencies or other kinds of placement services because they are very happy to give you advice your success as their success. So I looked at them for different ideas on how to keep this networking thing alive or my interviewing skills, or whatever that is ask them for advice. If you had one of your candidates asking this. What would you tell? Him because invariably you’re going to hear something that you probably haven’t heard or you’re going to hear it in a different way, and that subtle shift can put you in a completely new direction. Another consideration is being present. And interested often will follow up with somebody out of self interest. And we’re only focused on one thing. So it almost sounds like a broken record. Really we have to use our intuition and really get into the moment and be present with that conversation. So we can meet the needs of the other person. You know, I remember not too long ago. Actually, I was talking to somebody who didn’t care for this man that she had met fairly recently. And it’s because he didn’t ask her any questions about her and her environment. Well, okay, it’s nice to know that there are some mutual interest. But what was interesting is then she could not tell me anything about this other person other than the fact that he hadn’t asked her questions. Exactly for those of you couldn’t see the emotion in front of your face. Andrew Vinnie, buddy home. But if you’re not interested in the other person, why on earth would they be interested in you? And if they’re not asking the kinds of questions, you want to hear ask them, the quite kinds of questions you want to hear because how often do you ask somebody a question? And then they turn around and say how about you. And if they don’t maybe you don’t want to know that person any more than you do now. But you can’t expect them to be interested in you, unless you are showing that the people that I wanna talk to are the ones that are interesting and interested when you get both sides of that, and you have the conversation back and forth.

00:15:05 – 00:20:13

That’s usually how that fifteen minute interview just went in hour and a half. And when you think about it on top of all that is maybe a little bit of gratitude or thankfulness for somebody actually saying. Thank you for the interview. Thank you for your time. Thank you for being flexible allow yourself to give them a compliment or some thanks or some positive vibe. So that you can demonstrate to them what kind of person what kind of character you have. Well that also touches on the idea of when your time is up. Have you scheduled a fifteen minute conversation or thirty minute informational interview. When that thirty minutes is up you want to acknowledge, hey, I know we’re out of time. But I’m free to speak longer. If you are if they are free, and they say, oh, yeah. Let’s keep going. This is going to be a good conversation. If they say, oh, yeah. It’s thirty minutes. I gotta go. Maybe they did have something to go. But here’s your opportunity say, okay. When can I follow up with you and establish that kind of respect that will in turn deliver on the respect? And by practicing these every time you have a conversation with somebody you’re setting up successful follow up every single time. Do make. Note of when you’re supposed to follow up. So you actually follow up on time put it in your calendar. So that’s another. That’s another do when we think about the don’ts. There are probably as many don’t as Dewes maybe more. But I will say don’t overdo it. It’s a great idea to follow up very quickly very soon. I just read an article recently that that talked about these new ideas on how to stand out in the crowd in your follow up. And they’re the same pieces of advice that you and I have been giving all along have your thank you notes ready when you walk in. So you can personalize it and leave it at the desk before you leave that does set you apart because I’m here to tell you it happens rarely, but don’t then call them the two days later or five days later, and then another five days later, and then another five days landed that can get annoying. Most of the time people are two days or three days removed for an from an interview. Where somebody said they would follow up with them and didn’t right. And so that happens on the company side. I think what we’re hearing from the candidates that we coach are we’ve talked to through breakfast club is hey, I interviewed. I sent the thank, you know, even sent an Email, and I followed up with a recruiter three days later one. Why do now what would you don’t want to do is be hammering the phone and Email cornering that recruiter to try to get an answer? Because a recruiter may not have the answer. Right. That’s why it’s so important. If you’re at the interview or you’re having a networking conversation. Get their cell number get their Email understand what their preferred method of communication. Maybe it’s direct message through Twitter. I don’t know why we ask. So the don’t I would say is don’t forget don’t forget to gather that information. So that you can asking you the next steps has critical. Yeah. Absolutely one of the other don’ts that we wanna talk about is don’t be afraid. Raid of the level at which you follow up with the company. In other words, if you happen to have an opportunity to follow up on your interview. But with someone at a higher position do it. If you happen to run into the president of the company that you where you just interviewed have the conversation with the president say, hey, I just interviewed with your company. What’s it like to lead these people or or whatever that question is have a conversation with that person? And then asks that person, how can I follow up with you on this? If it’s back to the mailroom. Hey, I just interviewed for the manager position. What’s it like to work there, the mail room guys probably going to tell you what’s going on in the department, the more data points more information, you can collect the better? That’s a great point the other thing. I would say is don’t have fear to get back with a hiring manager. Once you’ve had an interview some people think, oh, I’m only supposed to be talking to the recruiter will you interviewed with the hiring manager. He’s the person or. She or that group is going to make the decision to hire you talk to them. Why wouldn’t you talk to them? Exactly get their permission at the interview, I’m giving you some tips some dues inside the don’t if you will don’t be afraid to reach out to anybody based on level context. Or what have you another thing to think about I have kids and you’ve had kids, right? When they were young. It seems like they’d ask me every three seconds, dad. Can I have a cookie cookie cookie? Well, you know, I do that. Yeah. To wear you down until you say, yes, just to and that does work it. Sure. Does it makes people angry white anyway? Yeah. So don’t be knowing. Yeah. Golden rule instead. Right. Well, I like the platinum rule do unto others as they would have you do to them if you’re constantly asking if you’re pestering your e you know, when you pester people that this is a behavior that I think we all understand.

00:20:13 – 00:25:01

Maybe there’s some fine lines. When it starts if you again. Think of it tried to think of this from the other person’s perspective. If I were to be asked for this information repeatedly how often is too often. How do I avoid asking too many times the same question, and I think following your your own instincts is probably going to be a good rule of thumb and recognize that many companies have a process. Yes. So if you’re in that process, you don’t control that process, and you don’t want to give them more information. That would weed you out of that process. Right. ’cause they have decision to make exactly and if you see the process, which you don’t influence and on best case scenario that might be forty five days to onboard somebody and you’re in in week one. Well, why would you call that person every other day? How many of us have been in situations where we have every intention of hiring by specific date, and then some other business need comes up that actually pushes. That out. It is what it is. There’s nothing the candidate can do or the hiring manager Medicare is to change the timing or to keep the timing on its original course, there’s just they’re so many things that can happen that it’s really best to ask for advice from the recruiter. For example. You know, it’s been a while. I’m still very interested. Can you give me some input on where the we might be in the process and usually recruiters are pretty good about giving. You the information you need don’t do it every five minutes. Maybe once a week has three suggesting I generally give the advice follow up immediately. And then a week later maybe one week after that, and then defer to the monthly again, it’s going to be different for for each specific scenario because maybe a two week period would be appropriate. If you’re asking when can I follow up? That’s that’s the answer. What’s most important? Don’t give up that is the most important. Don’t don’t give up don’t ever give up. Never never never never give up. Yeah. It giving out means to me the idea that okay? I’m no longer going to continue doing the work that I’m doing whatever that work may be in this cases, looking for work. If you don’t give up you show, your persistence, you show that you’re dedicated to doing this that gets noticed. Now, you may not get the job at the company you’re looking for, but people will notice that you don’t give up it. Also, it will get you through those hard times that brings us to the idea of. Hey, I’ve done the dues I’ve managed the don’ts at what point do. I just say, you know, what I just don’t wanna follow up with this person anymore, and that’s going to happen. It would be because there’s silence you followed up with Email phone calls voicemails, everything that, you know. I do know response and some point as they say Fisher cut bait personally when if somebody comes to me at that point to end their asking me, should I cut bait. I would say, yes. Because if you’ve reached that point your mindset about working for or with these people has changed year becoming frustrated or there is a lack of progress on the time line that you feel as appropriate whatever. This is your now starting to make judgments on whether or not you want to continue. That’s probably a really good time to say move on engagement is key here, if the person is engaged, and you have conversations back and forth, and you feel like it’s a relationship you want incubate forever. Then put them on a quarterly schedule. Right. If there’s no interview involved, or you know, it just depends on the context, but I think a quarterly schedule for most people is manageable. And even if you’re working. I recommend you have about twelve people on that follow up as one person week anybody working or not can follow up with one person week. Absolutely. I and I think that’s great advice. I think the hardest thing to deal with is. When you get silence. Crickets, you’ve put stuff out there. You’ve sent the emails to calls the whole thing. And you never get a response. I would say coming back to the idea of do the things that bring results don’t keep doing something. If it’s not bringing results if you’re getting silence move on and re-engage back into a new process with another company another person or what have you? There’s always gotta be the next one on the list.

00:25:01 – 00:26:52

Right. And so I would go and focus on that. So remember the follow up is a key component to everything you do in search, including the interview or just networking in general manager dues in your don’ts and make a decision at some point too. Up or not with that person. When Wendy walkaway, I think and remember just as a final thought the walkaway point knowing when you’re going to walk what your bottom line is gives you a certain amount of power. And it really helps you in your process to move onto other things once you reach that walkaway point awesome. Well, that’s it for job seekers radio. You can get all the show notes resources at seekers radio dot com forward slash zero four two, and we have a free resource for you Scott nine put together an e book is called the anatomy of networking conversation is going to help you with a lot of these things. We talk about in terms of networking and follow up and all of that jazz. Download that at Jobseeker’s radio dot com. There’s a little box. That’ll pop up sign up today. So thank you for joining us for this episode of job seekers radio. Oh, we want to acknowledge the investment of time and attention you’ve put into this. We really appreciate it. Head over. I tunes subscribed to get future episodes while you’re there, please. If you’ll just take a minute of your time to give a rate and review, we would really be grateful for that. We do listen we do give us the feedback. And it’s more than likely we’re going to incorporate that into future episodes, especially if you have questions we want to hear from you. Well, this is Andrew, and I’m Scott until next time go out and get it done.

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